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Ephesians 2:15-16 speaks of the creation of the new man in Christ. These verses say, “Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He might create the two in Himself into one new man, so making peace, and might reconcile both in one Body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity by it.” In verse 15 the two refers to the Jewish and Gentile believers, of whom the new man was created. Verse 16 indicates that this one new man is the one Body, that is, the Body of Christ, the church. According to these two verses the church is not only the one Body but also the one new man. There are not many new men; there is only one new man. Therefore, it is erroneous to consider that each believer is a new man. The new man is a corporate man composed of many persons. In the whole universe there is only one new man, and this one new man is the Body of Christ, the church.
Ephesians 4:22-24 reveals how this new man can be realized: “That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lusts of the deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the new man, which was created according to God in righteousness and holiness of the reality.” First we must put off the old man, that is, the old Adam, the first corporate man; then we must put on the new man, which is to put on the Body of Christ.
To put on the new man is simply to realize the church, to have the genuine church life, which is the life of the new man, the life of the Body of Christ. The church life is realized by us when we put off the old man and put on the new man. Moreover, the secret to putting off the old man and putting on the new man is to be renewed in the spirit of our mind (v. 23). The more we are renewed in our mind by the spreading of our spirit into our mind, the more we will put off the old man and put on the new man, the more we will realize the church life, and the more we will realize the Body of Christ.
The new man is spoken of also in Colossians 3:9-11, which says, “Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his practices and have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all.” In the new man there cannot be any person other than Christ; He is all and in all. Since the new man is the Body of Christ, the church, in the Body of Christ there is nothing but Christ Himself. Thus, to have the church life is simply to have Christ Himself as our life. We realize the church life, that is, we put on the new man, simply by experiencing Christ in a genuine way.
First Corinthians 12:12 confirms this: “For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ.” Here we see that Christ is not only the Head (Col. 1:18) but also the Body. Both the Head and the Body are Christ. Therefore, Christ Himself is the new man. He is both the Head of the new man and the Body of the new man. He is all-inclusive.
The way to realize the genuine church life is to experience Christ as life and as everything to us. God’s eternal intention is for Christ to be wrought into us not only as our life but also as our everything. When we are regenerated, Christ enters into us and is born in our spirit to be our life. From that time on, God desires that we live by Christ (John 6:57; Phil. 1:21a), walk in Christ (Col. 2:6), and take Christ as everything to us — as knowledge, wisdom, light, energy, strength, power, and many other items (v. 3; 1 Cor. 1:30; John 8:12; Phil. 4:13; Eph. 6:10). This requires that we give up the old man, deny our self, and put off the old nature. The more we apply the cross to our old nature, our old man, the more we will experience Christ in a genuine way.
We need to be impressed that the church life is not a matter of doctrine; rather, it is Christ Himself realized by us in our daily life. We are the members of Christ. He is the divine vine, and we are the branches (John 15:5). We need to abide in Him and take Him not only as our life but also as everything to us. We need to live, walk, and do everything in Him, by Him, and through Him. Although we may know this already, it is one thing to know something, and it is another thing to realize it in our experience. Today there is much talk among the Lord’s people concerning the problem of the unity of the church, that is, concerning the oneness of the Body of Christ. But the oneness of the Body can be realized only when we are living by Christ and walking in Him. The more we live by our self and walk in our self, the more sectarian we will be. In fact, all denominations and sects are formed because of one thing — human effort. If we deny our self and live by Christ, that is, if we put off the old man and put on the new man by putting on Christ as life and as everything to us (Rom. 13:14), there will be no need to talk about unity, because we will already be in the oneness of the church. The oneness of the church is nothing other than Christ experienced by us as the Spirit. It is not a matter of teachings. The more we talk about teachings, the more we will be divided, but the more we give up teachings and take Christ as everything to us, the more we will realize the oneness of the church.
The lesson of church history shows us that the more doctrines we have, the more we will be divided. However, the more we give up teachings and doctrines, live by Christ, put off the old man and put on the new man, and apply the cross of Christ in our daily life, the more we will be in the oneness of the Body. The urgent need today is for us to know Christ as life in a living and practical way. If we will practice this and be willing to apply Christ to our daily life by appropriating Him in all our daily matters, we will sense our urgent need to be one with other Christians. Teachings separate and divide, but life brings in oneness. When we are in Christ, taking Christ as our life and experiencing Him in a living way, we are in the oneness, because the reality of the oneness of the church is Christ Himself. It is not Christ in doctrines or teachings but Christ genuinely experienced by us as life that will bring us into the reality of the oneness of the church.
If we experience Christ in a real and living way, we will be in the church life and will never be individualistic. However, the more we work by our self for the Lord, the more individualistic we will be. If we give up the thought of serving the Lord by our self, if we simply deny our self, take Christ as our life and everything, and abide in Him, life will flow from within us. This flow of life brings in the oneness of the Body. The more we live Christ, the more we will long to be one with others, and the more we will be willing to be dependent on others.
If we experience Christ as everything, we will not be self-sufficient and thus become independent. On the contrary, the more we live by Christ, the more we will realize that we are just one member of the Body and that we can never be complete in ourselves. In our physical body each individual member needs the whole body, but a complete body as a whole does not need anything else. As a human being I am complete, with my own ears, eyes, hands, and feet. In a sense, I can be independent because I am a complete person. However, every member of my physical body needs to depend on the other members. Likewise, none of us is the complete Body; each of us is only a member (1 Cor. 12:14, 20; Rom. 12:5). However, if we live by our self, subconsciously we may think that we are complete and that we can be independent. If we live by Christ by denying our self and taking Christ as our life day by day, we will realize that we are nothing but a small member of the Body who needs the other members. When we are living in Christ, we long for the Body of Christ and for a relatedness between us and the other members. This is the genuine church life, and this can be realized only by the experience of Christ in our daily life. The church life can never be realized merely by teaching or by talking about the oneness of the church. Actually, the more we teach or talk about the oneness, the more we will be divided. The only way to realize the oneness of the church is to experience Christ in a genuine way.
Question: Recently you gave us the main point of the books of 1 and 2 Chronicles, which is that no one can work by his own power, ability, or wisdom. Would you share something further about this?
Answer: We have to look at this portion of the Word with the view of the entire Scriptures, from beginning to end. The Scriptures reveal to us that God’s intention in this universe is to have His house, His dwelling place, built up among the human race. The adamic race failed God in this matter, and God called Abraham in order to have a new beginning with a new race. The seed, the sons, of Abraham became the materials that God is using to build His dwelling place (cf. Gal. 3:26, 29). When the children of Israel came out of Egypt, God asked them to erect the tabernacle, which is a sign signifying that all the redeemed ones are a dwelling place for the Lord (Exo. 25:8; Heb. 3:5-6; Eph. 2:22). The tabernacle was a temporary dwelling place. The Lord’s intention was that Israel would build a more permanent dwelling place, the temple, in the land of Canaan. The temple could be built up only through the victory of the children of Israel over all their enemies. Only after all the enemies had been defeated and terminated was it possible for the Lord to build up His dwelling place among His people. Therefore, before the building up of the temple could take place, there was first the need of fighting to remove all the enemies of God. In fulfilling this aspect of His purpose, King David was very much used by God. David fought the good fight for the Lord to put all His enemies to an end (1 Chron. 18—20).
Seemingly, David was the right person to build the temple. After he had gained the victory over the enemies, he himself thought of building a temple for God (2 Sam. 7:1-3). Nevertheless, God stopped him (vv. 4-16). Then, under the sovereign hand of God, David committed two serious sins. After he committed the first sin (ch. 11), he repented and confessed (Psa. 51). He received the Lord’s forgiveness and obtained a son, Solomon, who was to build the temple (2 Sam. 12:13, 24-25). After David committed the second sin, he again repented and was forgiven, and he obtained a piece of land that would be the site for the temple (1 Chron. 21:1—22:1; cf. 2 Chron. 3:1). Moreover, during this period of his reign he prepared all the materials for the building up of the temple (1 Chron. 22:2-19).
Although the temple was built by man, it does not testify how much man can do for God. Rather, it testifies to the universe how much God can do for sinful mankind. However, the main thing we must see is that God’s intention in all the generations of man is to build a dwelling place on this earth among the human race. This is the central thought in the Old Testament, which is primarily a history of the building of God’s dwelling place. Indeed, the temple is the center of the Old Testament. Likewise, the center of the New Testament is the building up of the church as a dwelling place for God (Matt. 16:18; 1 Cor. 3:9-12a; Eph. 2:21-22; 4:12, 16). Eventually, the ultimate consummation of the entire Scriptures is the New Jerusalem as the eternal tabernacle and dwelling place of God (Rev. 21:2-3).
Therefore, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament God is building His dwelling place. In eternity God will gain a building as a temple, a dwelling place, for Himself. Our responsibility is to cooperate with God’s building work. This is the reason that there is always a longing in the children of God for the church life. The more a person loves the Lord, seeks the Lord, walks in the Lord, and lives by the Lord, the more he longs to have a church life. This is something divine and of the Holy Spirit, not merely of ourselves, so that we may realize the church life and carry out the genuine building up of the church.
Question: How does this work in practice?
Answer: On the one hand, to carry this out in practice seems very complicated, especially in view of today’s confusing situation. On the other hand, it is very simple. On the negative side, we must give up everything that is not of the Body. Just as our physical body rejects anything foreign to it, we must reject anything that is foreign to the Body of Christ. As living members of the Body of Christ, we know what is foreign to the Body and therefore does not belong to the church. On the positive side, when we are living in Christ, we will long to be related to others. To satisfy this longing, we must simply come together with others and take the ground as the expression of the Body of Christ in our locality. There is no need for us to study in a Bible institute. We simply need to give up all the foreign things and come together with those members who are available and take the ground as a local expression of the Lord’s Body where we are. The Lord will bless and be with those who do this.
Furthermore, in our experience this is very workable. We should not think that we cannot meet together because we do not have a pastor or a church building. The way of hiring a pastor and building a church building is complicated and will not work. The simple way is the best. On the island of Taiwan there are many local churches, none of which was built up by a pastor or a full-time worker. Rather, all the churches in Taiwan were raised up by ordinary saints. We must forget about the foreign things and be simple. We should remember that we are believers, members of the Lord’s Body, and come together with others in the simplest way. Then the Lord will be with us.
Question: What do you mean by the expression “learn to apply the cross in our daily lives”?
Answer: This simply means that we need to deny our self. The church is a new creation created by Christ, in Christ, and with Christ, and is actually Christ Himself realized within us (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:14-16; Gal. 6:15). Moreover, the new creation, as the new man, the Body of Christ, is Christ mingled with us (Col. 3:10-11). Hence, we must learn to deny the old life, which is the self, the adamic life, the old nature, the soulish life (Matt. 16:24-25). In the matter of denying the self, do not try to do anything by yourself, but simply accept what the Lord reveals to you. He will reveal clearly to you that your old life is finished, in other words, that you yourself are finished. Taking this ground, you can refuse to go along with your self and can simply take Christ as your life. In this way you will apply the cross to your daily life.
Question: Is there no need of struggling or discipline?
Answer: In the experience of the cross, the more we struggle, the more we turn the cross away from us. It is true that there is the need of discipline, but this is necessary only because we are too strong in either the mind, the emotion, or the will. Because of this, we need to be disciplined in order to be subdued. However, if we are always willing to give up our self, telling the Lord, “Lord, I am ready to give up my mind and my emotion in everything, and I will also pay the price to give up my will in everything,” there will be no need for discipline. A test may come to us, but because we are willing to give up our self, there will be no struggle. It is simply because we are strong in our mind, emotion, and will that we struggle. The Lord has to discipline us again and again in order to subdue and break us so that we may be able to give up our self.
Many saints who seek the Lord are very much disciplined by the Lord because they are too strong in doing good for Him. They need to be broken in the matter of their doing good. It is not because they are sinful that the Lord disciplines them, but because they are good. The Lord has to raise up certain circumstances to press them, break them, and force them to give up their self. Only then will they be able to realize the oneness of the Spirit and the oneness of the Body. Indeed, we need to know that all the divisions and denominations were created by the best people; an evil person could never set up a sect, for no one would follow him. The more we are good, the more we will be independent, but the more we are spiritual and in the Lord, the more we will be dependent. It is one thing to be good, but it is another thing to be spiritual.
God’s intention is for us to be God-men, not good men. A good man may not be a God-man; he may still be a soulish man. Only a God-man is spiritual (cf. 1 Cor. 2:14-15). Therefore, we must learn to give up our self in all things, not only in doing evil things but even more in doing good things, such as serving the Lord and working for Him.
Question: Is there any difference between what Watchman Nee proposes and what has been attempted by the Brethren?
Answer: Concerning the Brethren, there are two shortcomings in the way that they practice the church. First, they place too much emphasis on teaching and neglect life. Even when they teach concerning Christ, their teaching is mostly in dead letters. Merely to have Christian teachings without realizing Christ Himself is to teach in dead letters, even if those teachings are concerning Christ. It is Christ Himself as the Spirit whom we must realize, and any group of believers who meet together as an expression of the Body of Christ must be living and full of Christ. They must experience the reality of Christ. If all the saints experience Christ in a real and living way, automatically every problem will be solved and every argument will be terminated. According to our observation, among the Brethren there is too much teaching and very little reality of life.
The second shortcoming among the Brethren concerns the basis of their meetings. The meetings of the exclusive Brethren are narrow and sectarian. Although the open Brethren are more open to the Lord, they neglect the fact that there should not be more than one expression of the church in any locality. In a given city there should be only one local expression of the church, just as there was only one church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, and in Corinth, respectively (Acts 8:1; 13:1; 1 Cor. 1:2). In the New Testament there is never more than one church in any locality (Rom. 16:1; 2 Cor. 8:1; Gal. 1:2; Rev. 1:11), but the open Brethren have neglected this matter.
In some cities there are a number of open Brethren chapels. The different meetings are not called the church in that locality but are referred to as local chapels on certain streets. By holding such a practice, the open Brethren neglect the oneness of the Body in its local expression. Suppose, for instance, that on Twenty-first Avenue a group of Brethren saints are meeting together. After five months, three of the saints may no longer agree with the meeting because they have a difference of opinion. Hence, they may decide to leave the meeting on Twenty-first Avenue and begin another meeting on Eleventh Avenue. According to their practice, the first meeting will be called the Twenty-first Avenue Chapel, and the second, the Eleventh Avenue Chapel. Perhaps after another year has passed, a group of believers from the second meeting will divide and separate to meet on another avenue and begin another chapel. This illustrates the history of the Brethren in neglecting the oneness of the Body as expressed in localities. Although we have no intention of criticizing others, according to our realization of the truth in the New Testament, there must be only one local expression of the Lord’s Body in each locality.
Question: Are you saying, in effect, that simply meeting in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is not a sufficient ground, or a wide enough basis, for meeting?
Answer: In order to answer this question adequately, we need to review the history of the Christian denominations. Up to the time of the Reformation in the sixteenth century, there was the Catholic Church. In the Reformation the state churches came into being, which were churches for the people but not of the people. The monarchs became heads of their respective state churches. Hence, today the king of Denmark is the head of the Church of Denmark, and the queen of England is the head of the Church of England. After the state churches, the private churches, such as the Presbyterian Church, the Baptist Church, and the Methodist Church, came into being. These churches were not only for the people but also of the people. Then, in the early nineteenth century, through brothers such as John Nelson Darby, Benjamin Newton, and others, the free churches began. These churches were outside the denominations and organizations. Hence, today in Christianity there are the Catholic Church, the state churches, the private churches, and the free churches.
Since the time that the free churches began, Christians everywhere have claimed, on the basis of Matthew 18:20, that two or three believers meeting together constitute a church. This verse says, “For where there are two or three gathered into My name, there am I in their midst.” The Lord, however, did not say that the two or three gathered into His name are the church. The conjunction for at the beginning of the verse indicates that what is spoken of thereafter is a continuation of something mentioned previously. Verses 15 through 17 say, “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go, reprove him between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not hear you, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.” According to the context, therefore, the two or three in verse 20 are the two or three witnesses mentioned previously in verse 16. They are not the church but are merely part of the church. If they have a problem, they should endeavor to solve it themselves. If they cannot, they must refer the problem to the church. The church in this chapter is the local church, not the universal church, for it is possible to “tell it to the church.” This portion of the Word continues, “If he refuses to hear the church also, let him be to you just like the Gentile and the tax collector. Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven” (vv. 17b-18a). The church may bind the brother who refuses to hear the church, if the heavens have already bound him (cf. 16:19). Matthew 18:18b-20 continues, “Whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again, truly I say to you that if two of you are in harmony on earth concerning any matter for which they ask, it will be done for them from My Father who is in the heavens. For where there are two or three gathered into My name, there am I in their midst.” From all these verses it is evident that the two or three gathered into the Lord’s name are not the church but are only certain members of a local church who are dealing with a brother who has sinned. There is no basis in the Lord’s teaching in this passage for anyone to begin a meeting with just two or three in a home and call it a church. If in the same city you can have two or three meeting as a church in your home, and I can have two or three meeting as another church in my home, the church will be divided because of our failure to recognize the need to keep the oneness of the Body. In order to keep the oneness of the church in the locality where we are, we must be one with all the children of God in that locality. We must take the ground of the church in that place and stand as a local church.
Question: If we want to meet on the church ground, gather around the Lord’s table, and be led freely by the Spirit, and if we extend open fellowship to all, but others do not come, where do we stand?
Answer: In today’s situation everything is complicated and confused, but we do not take responsibility for this. Rather, we must be responsible before the Lord for ourselves. If you see the light concerning the oneness of the church, you must practice it by the grace of God. Whether or not others would come is their responsibility. However, we must be careful of one thing: before beginning a meeting in any place, we must first find out if there are saints who are already meeting there and taking the ground of the church. If there are such believers, we must join them and submit ourselves to them. We should not start another meeting. If we are careless in this matter, we will do something wrong.
Question: Suppose there is such a group of believers, but some of the things they believe or practice are peculiar. How would you react?
Answer: It depends on how much these things damage the oneness. For instance, some believe in practicing foot-washing, whereas others believe in practicing head covering. These kinds of differences will not cause much damage to the oneness of the Body. To be sure, we cannot accept any difference that damages the oneness. However, when a difference concerns something that does not damage the oneness, when it is only a difference of thought, we need to be patient. The scriptural basis for this is Romans 14 and 15. In these chapters some saints insisted on eating meat, and others insisted on eating only vegetables. Some insisted on keeping certain days, and others considered every day the same. The apostle told them that they had to receive one another (14:1, 3; 15:7). His attitude was that those who keep certain days should not look down on those who do not, and that those who do not keep the days should not criticize those who do. He did not say what was right and what was wrong. He simply asked the saints to be patient with one another and receive one another. They had to accept all kinds of genuine believers.
Question: That would be a little hard to practice, would it not?
Answer: The matter of receiving the believers requires us to deny our self. For example, thirty years ago I saw the light that I should be baptized by immersion. From that time on, I would not agree with anyone who insisted on being sprinkled, and I refused to meet with such persons. Gradually, however, the Lord showed me that baptism by immersion is not what matters; what matters is Christ Himself. Having seen this, I can go along with those who insist on being sprinkled, as long as they love the Lord and live in the spirit.
The more we discuss matters of doctrine, the less we will be in the oneness. But if, instead of caring for differences in teaching and doctrine, we all learn to experience Christ in a genuine way day by day, we will be filled with Christ. Then we will forget about all the minor things. None of us will insist on anything, but we will bring everything to the Lord in fellowship to seek the Lord’s mind. The Lord will lead us on. There will be no need to set up any regulation or observe any rule in the way of legality and dead letters. We should simply take Christ as our life and come together as a genuine local expression of the Body in the place where we are.
Question: How do you differentiate between coming together through Christ and knowing the will of Christ? Do you have to know the will of Christ in order to believe in this teaching?
Answer: To attempt to settle everything by means of knowledge through teaching is a dead practice. Instead, we need to take the Lord as everything and experience Him in a living way. Whenever anything happens, we need to come together to seek the Lord’s mind by reading the Word, by prayer, and by fellowship. We do not need to set up any rules, but time after time and in a living way, we should simply take the living Lord with His living word for our experience. This will save us from the legality of dead letters and dead knowledge.
For example, it is a rule in dead letters to require the sisters to wear a head covering in the meetings. However, if we come together with the sisters to seek the Lord’s mind by reading His Word and consecrating ourselves to Him to allow Him to speak to us, the wearing of a head covering will be something living. When we trust in the Lord and honor Him, He will lead us. Although a sister may never be subdued or submissive by our speaking to her concerning head covering, if we pray and seek the Lord with her, she may be very willing to take the Lord’s word and command.
Question: Are you saying that even if what we teach is scriptural, if a person receives it only because we said it and not because the Spirit revealed it, then that is of the flesh and not of the Lord?
Answer: We must realize that human beings love to set up certain rules, doctrines, and teachings and live by them. But in the New Testament the Lord never set up such things; rather, He gave some living teachings. Similarly, when they wrote the Epistles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the apostles did not write in the way of setting up rules. Since this is the case, today we should not take the apostles’ teachings and set them up as rules. What the apostles wrote were living words from the Lord, words that are fresh and refreshing, and today we must also have such fresh and refreshing words. Therefore, in everything we need to seek the Lord’s mind together in a living way.
Question: How do we know where we are in the Body? How can we know our relationship to other members and how we fit in with the members in the Body?
Answer: The basic question we need to ask ourselves is, Do we really experience our Lord as life? If I live by my self and another member lives by his self, it will be very difficult for the two of us to fit in with each other. But if I live by the Lord and he lives by the Lord, it will be easy. When we come together, it will be easy to know where I am and where he is. Automatically and spontaneously, we will be fitted together in the experience of Christ as life. For example, I may not know whether I have the gift to minister the Lord’s word. Nevertheless, I know because of the inward anointing that I have a measure of grace to do something in the Body. Through the anointing of the Holy Spirit each one of us has an inward assurance to know where we are, what we should do, and how we should be related to the other members. There is an inner feeling, sense, and assurance that comes from the anointing of the Holy Spirit within us. This is spontaneous.
What the Lord is seeking today is, first, that His people would experience Him as life in their daily living and, second, that He would have a genuine local expression of Himself in every locality. We are not saying that teachings are not necessary, but the urgent need today is for us to experience Christ as our life in a real way and then come together as a genuine expression of Christ in the place where we are. This is simple and effective. If we practice this, the Lord will be with us in everything we do.
Question: Have many great men had this vision?
Answer: According to our study of history, there have only been two occasions when the Lord’s people endeavored to practice the church life in the genuine oneness. The first was with the Moravians under the leadership of Count Zinzendorf at the beginning of the eighteenth century. The second was with the British Brethren raised up by the Lord in the early nineteenth century. Apart from these two occasions, no other group intended to do this. For example, when the Baptists began to meet, they met not to have the church life but to maintain the truth of the proper baptism. The intention of the Presbyterians was not primarily to practice the church but to practice the Presbyterian system. Likewise, when John Wesley began a meeting, he did not have the light concerning the church. His intention was to practice holiness by a certain method, and this led to the name Methodist. Therefore, the attempt to practice the church life in the genuine oneness took place only on two occasions, the first of which was not as clear, full, or adequate as the second. However, today we believe that the Lord has taken a further step to realize the genuine expression of the Body of Christ in every place through the experience of Christ as life.
